Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
How punk rock influences Simone van Neerven's innovation strategy on reBel.la
In this exciting episode of Life on Mars, Alex have a great conversation with Simone van Neerven, founder of reBel.la, to explore how challenging the status quo can drive creativity and change. With a career that began at KLM and evolved into building her own brand, Simone shares her personal journey—from corporate life to embracing her rebellious spirit—and how it’s helped her break barriers and inspire others.
Through honest stories and sharp insights, Simone highlights the powerful role rebels play in driving innovation within companies. She emphasizes the value of building community, fostering collaboration, and embracing individuality to spark new ideas.
This conversation goes beyond theory—it’s a practical guide to finding and embracing your inner rebel, even in environments that resist change. Simone offers actionable advice for anyone looking to challenge corporate norms and create space for bold, fresh thinking.
Whether you're feeling boxed in by traditional systems or just curious about how rebellion can fuel innovation, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical takeaways.
Tune in, and discover how embracing your unique perspective can unlock new possibilities.
🎬 You can watch the video of this episode on the Life on Mars podcast website: https://podcast.marsbased.com/
Hello everybody and welcome to Life on Mars. I'm Alex, ceo and founder of MarsBase, and in this episode I'm joined by Simone van Nierpen, the founder of Rebella, a company bringing innovation to rebellious attitude, around which she has created her own personal branding and how being rebellious in corporate environments can pay off very, very big dividends if you have the right attitude. So, without further ado, let's jump right into this episode. Welcome, simone. How are you doing Good to reconnect?
Speaker 2:Yes, good to see you again. I'm doing well over here in Amsterdam.
Speaker 1:Great. It's funny that we I think it's kind of coincidental that we connected for the event, the Corporate Innovation Summit we put together in March 2020 or late February 2020, right before COVID hit. It was on the evening of supposedly, there had to be Mobile World Congress, but it got canceled. That year, however, a few of us decided we were going to continue with our events. There was a text period, there was our event In hindsight not the most brilliant idea, but the feeling of community that we got in those trying times was very intense, but that was right away. You left Barcelona, so are you missing Barcelona at all in our ecosystem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I miss Barcelona a lot, and not only because of the nice atmosphere, but also I had such a great team over there. So I miss my team and I also miss like. It was like a small community and everybody knew each other, and the difference between Amsterdam and Barcelona is, I think people here are more I don't know how to say that more closed, while in Barcelona it's like, hey, join, and if you know someone else, bring them along, and it's more free, and I really love that. There was a lot of serendipity going on and I think that's also one of the reasons how we met and I met within a couple of the reasons how we met and I met within a couple of months. Living in Barcelona, I think I knew a lot of people in the innovation space over there.
Speaker 1:Two more coincidences that today we woke up to the news that our venue for this year's Corporate Innovation Summit had been Our contract was canceled single-handedly by the venue, which is pretty disastrous news to wake up to. Yeah, fortunately we've got a backup, but this is the fourth edition of that event. The other coincidence that you might not be aware of is because I got to know you in that event. I kind of like dug deeper into what Vueling does in technology, and so I started meeting people at Vueling. And now we're into what Vueling does in technology, and so he started meeting people at Vueling and now we're providers of Vueling. Vueling is our client. We signed Vueling last year but we started meeting people and then I was fascinated by all the things going on, which is kind of strange considering the shit website and the terrible experience that Vueling has. But the things that they invest in technology and innovation are pretty impressive. So don't worry, you will not get in trouble, Only me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's interesting because before I did my assignment at Voiling, I worked a long time for KLM and then everybody was like, oh, klm, but Voiling was and is much more innovative and because they also still well.
Speaker 2:When I was like, oh, klm, but Vuelingen was and is much more innovative and because they also still well when I was there I don't know now five years later, but they had really like this startup mindset still and what I did with my team I don't know if you, I have lots of stories there, but my assignment was for two years so I decided that I needed to push and if I didn't get any pushback I wasn't doing a good job. So I tried to dwell on the edge and see, okay, how far can we go? I had like a secret developers team in Valencia, so that was sort of like outside of the organization, so we could very quickly build prototypes and investigate new technologies and innovations and they could help us a lot without being bothered by this headquarter, legal stuff and all that kind of thing. So that was nice.
Speaker 1:That's something that's still there. I think we work for the innovation department and they move pretty fast, considering it's a corporation, right, and considering it's within. You know the main holding and this intricate relationship of all like the big brands of the group and whatnot, but I find it very surprising that they were like you guys choose your technologies, you guys choose your methodology, you're allowed to do 100%, whatever the fuck you want to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which doesn't happen like this in corporate. So so far we're very happy, and so I can. I can attest to what you're saying. It's still. It's still holding true nowadays.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, so. I reported to Jorge Sacco. He's the CFO of Willing. And yeah, and so I reported to Jorge Sacco. He's the CFO of Willing and I think he's still there and, unlike many other CFOs, he was very visionary and he was very open to investing in new things and trying things out, so that was very helpful too, and maybe that's also one of the reasons why this vibe is still there.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so you mentioned the thing about the pushback. Was it a good assist, a good segue to get into what you're doing right now? The Revelleus actually that you think brings innovation Was it a plot, so I've always been a rebel. But now I dare to show it more. That's your brand. How did that come to be?
Speaker 2:first of all, yeah, um, it's it. So when I quit my job at klm seven years ago, um, that was because I was approached for by welling for their head of innovation position, and I said I don't want to do it if I. And how do you say that? If I, if you give me a permanent contract so you can hire me as a freelance or um yeah and then we negotiate a little bit and then they said, yeah, okay, let's do that.
Speaker 2:And I was like shit. Now I have to uh to how do you say that? To build my brand or to go to this government here in holland? To how do you I don't know how you call that, but you have to have your um chamber of commerce or something. Your yeah.
Speaker 1:Chamber of color yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:so shit, I need a name. And then I I asked some friends and, uh, I popped some ideas and everybody liked rubella the most. It's from Rebel and Bella and this combination. And then I was like, okay, let's do it. And that's how the name was born. But if I look back at my youth and everything, I've always been quite rebellious, so I think it was unconscious or subconscious choice. And now I dare also to build it bigger. And the reason why I say I dare to? Because with this Rebella name I also push clients away Because they're like we don't need rebels and we don't need anything of that, so let's not go there. But for me I'm like, hey, if clients don't want to work with me because of this name, we are not a good match in the first place.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm crossing a line here, but rebellion doesn't come from places of comfort or from upbringings of, you know, environments of abundance, and so I've always been pretty rebellious myself. Uh, that's why we have this sort of symphony going on. But because my family had came from a very I wouldn't say poor, but like modest, humble, working class background, right, we had very little to live with and I had to kind of like fight my way through, you know, divorced parents, like living off subsidies from the state and stuff like that. I'm also left-handed, so I've got, I had like all the constraints in the world, jokes aside, but that maybe brought me to certain cultural tribes, right, even though I never kind of like associated with any of them a hundred percent, because back then you know there would be like, oh, the skinheads, the metalheads, the whatever, like this and that. And uh, I've always been rebellious through music. For instance.
Speaker 1:And for me, certain music like punk, rock and metal spoke to me because it was rebellious. I don't know if you had some sort of connection to music at all, or is it just only business? I don't know in your case.
Speaker 2:No, it's also the way I live. When I was 13 years old, I said to my parents I don't want to have children. And they're like, yeah sure, you're 30 years old, but I already deeply knew inside that I didn't want that. But it's not a choice. Many people don't make this kind of choice at that age, and it was against how do you say that?
Speaker 1:Establishment, yeah, establishment, tradition, even yeah.
Speaker 2:So my parents are also from working class and my grandparents had a farm and whenever I wanted something to buy, something like a stereo or whatever my parents said, good, great idea, go I, go at work and earn your own money and then buy whatever you want. So so I also learned a lot to work really hard and not to give up. And in my upbringing, I think what is also very transformational for me is everybody always said ah, you're a girl, so don't leave it and don't bother that much. And why, why are you trying so hard and just leave it? And I was like leave it, fuck it. And so I I have like a strong, deep urge to maybe to prove myself or to show the world that I, um, I can do stuff, and that's also a big driver for me, um, and maybe, yeah, a small, a short story, because it's a fun story, but also it shows that I'm passionate about like this female male thing, because I experience as a female sometimes that I'm treated differently.
Speaker 2:So when I was four years old, we were in kindergarten I don't know how you say that in Spanish, but like preschool right and then in Holland we don't have the Christmas, we don't have Santa Claus at Christmas, but we have Sinterklaas, which is at December 5th. Similar guy whatever, he also gives presents. So he came to the kindergarten school and he had presents for everyone. So he had for the boys he had a toy truck and for the girls he had a doll and yeah I have been.
Speaker 2:I screamed for a very long time until I got this toy truck because I really want. I didn't want to have the doll and so. So I think I was already like, yeah, I don't know pushing the limits fighting against.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fighting against the establishment. Finally, when I was a kid, I was always playing with dolls myself, so we should have changed places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but probably I don't know if in your case, like in my case, when I grew up, I started working, you know, even though you have your preconceptions and you can be as rebellious as you want in society, you know, going to I remember going to the traditions or what you read on the news what is passed on is at work. You don't discuss politics, you don't discuss. You know, no football, no politics, no religion, stuff like that, so that. And back then you couldn't be like left wing, at least in Spain, right, the zeitgeist was another and so for me it was pretty shocking.
Speaker 2:I had to bite my tongue pretty often when I was at. I started at Deloitte, like the most corporate environment. So how did you manage the internal frustration of having to bite your tongue? If you had to, I'm assuming you had to in your corporate years. Yeah, so it's funny, right, because in the time that I graduated from university it was normal to go to a large corporate, right? But today it's very cool to go and build your own startup. So I wish I was born like 20 years later, because I think I'm much more like an entrepreneur than someone who fits in the corporate culture.
Speaker 2:So what happened is I started with first the Royal Dutch Mail Company, which is a huge corporate, and then after two years, I switched to KLM. So I have been at KLM for like 16 years and it's interesting because you already see on the uniforms how important someone is the more stripes, the more important. So it was a very hierarchical organization and there I was. I was like fuck hierarchy, and if I have an idea, I'm going to do it. And so, yes, I had to bite off my tongue quite often.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, I also built or created my own job five or six times just out of nothing. Then I had my normal job and then I saw some things that were not going well, or I had an idea, and then I was like, oh, maybe we can do something with that. And then it started to work out, and then they made it my job and then I got bored again and then the same happened. So, um, although so what? I I, I have been rebellious in that sense, but I, I always made sure that I, um, um, achieved very well results, so they could never say, well, you're doing something strange and you're not performing, so we're going to kick you out. They were always like, yeah, she might be pushing the boundaries, but she is kicking ass also.
Speaker 1:You're delivering right. That's the whole thing. Well, I don't know. I remember when I was at Deloitte, a company I moved afterwards similar kind of company. I was always hitting the ceiling of the corporate. They had the progression, the career plan, and because I mentally didn't fit any of these models, I was always kidding like roadblocks, walls and all that. We don't do things this way, and I'm like I was seeing the same things happening in society and in work, right?
Speaker 1:in the workplace which is we always have done things like this way, tradition, blah, blah. It's like this shit is not for me, maybe because I'm I'm new to the divergent right, so I'm diagnosed asperger's, so for me it's really hard to accept authority and my preconception of law and and and rules, like it's pretty diffuse. And so you try to be entrepreneurial. I discovered I was trying to be entrepreneurial in an environment that this kind of creativity wasn't allowed. Right, because it's built for the 80% power law of people. Right, if you're an outlier, you're not built for these kind of companies. But maybe that taught me not only how to do things but how not to do things.
Speaker 1:So, that accumulation of frustration biting my tongue. Maybe that's what gave me the inspiration to start a company like Marsways, which is hey, it's 100% the opposite of what these guys are doing over here.
Speaker 1:So my point, the question being and I know it's a very long preface to this question is had I not had all of this accumulated frustration, maybe we wouldn't have had the idea to innovate so much in creating a consultancy. That's DNA of a startup 100% remote, more expensive than the rest, specialists versus generalists and stuff like that. Where did you get your ideas from? Did you experience this sort of like relief after getting out of the corporate and now playing on your terms?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my foundation with KLM is very beneficial because I know how these large corporations work. I know how to make results or get to results. I know how the politics are played, so that's very fundamental for the things I do right now. I work with large brands sometimes, but also small brands, ngos, foundations.
Speaker 2:It's like everybody is always looking like me. There's no logical sense in my client portfolio, and that's exactly what I want, because I also love the diversity of all these different kind of organizations and although these organizations are different, they have similarities. What I learned from KLM is that you can achieve fucking great results by being rebellious, and I want to inspire organizations that they should listen more and embrace their rebels, because those are the ones who get the ball rolling, and now most of the time, they are stopping this ball from rolling and what I see is I get a lot of private messages from people who identify as a rebel and they get super frustrated and they ask me to mentor them or what are my tips for them, and I think that's so much lost potential for large organizations.
Speaker 1:So for me me, the biggest driver of what I do, the things I do, that I do comes from a lot of frustration that I have from my corporate background yeah, you refer a lot to rebels, but I wonder if there's any difference between a rebel in a corporate and an intrapreneur, which is a word that's overutilized to rebels, but I wonder if there's any difference between a rebel in a corporate and an entrepreneur, which is a word that's overutilized. I don't know if you, if you think they are the same or not.
Speaker 2:Just to understand this role a little bit better, it's difficult because everybody has so many different kind of definitions. For for me, entrepreneur are people who are most of the time dedicated to innovation or bringing new stuff. Well, rebels can also be the ones who just have a normal job in a normal team and they're not working on the next big thing, but they can still challenge the status quo, come up with new ideas to improve the work environment. So there's overlap between intrapreneur and rebels. But I also think rebels are everywhere and some show it more than others. So intrapreneur is more of like a job description and the rebel is more like how do you say that? It's within people?
Speaker 1:It's an attitude, right, yeah, which, okay. Now it's much more clear to me because fundamentally, you know working. We don't technically work in innovation as such, but every now and then we get projects that are innovative right, usually for the innovation department. Don't technically work in innovation as such, but every now and then we get projects that are innovative right, usually for the innovation department. But sometimes the innovation lies outside of the innovation departments, right? Because from the outside perspective, when you see like a large corporation, say like Welling or FC Barcelona or Ford or whatever, you think like, oh, the innovation of Ford is creating flying cars, that's what their innovation department is working on. Probably that's not true. Probably it's like hey, no, we need to change the material of the tires so that it degrades less over time.
Speaker 1:Or we have to make it 5% more aerodynamic, or you know things like that. They look minuscule but because of the sheer volume of cars they produce, the gains might be potentially in hundreds of millions every year. Right, so innovation, I think, in a corporation. You tell me this, but it can happen in every department. But it will only happen if it has a rebel.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If you get a rebel in the accounting department, like're like. No, we will start using this tool or we'll do it this way.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah. So when I was head of innovation at Voiling, I worked in three different horizons, and I use this a lot because in horizon one it's more like how can we improve the current business right? How can we come up with a better website, or stuff like that, just to mention something yeah, just casually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when we worked on Horizon 2, it was more like what would be the future customer experience for like in five years from now, customer experience for like in five years from now. So we created, like also a video or an animation where we started at home and we had um luggage pickup at home and we had transport from the airport to, uh, to the airport at, from home to the airport, and every it was all integrated. So that was already pushing a little bit like the comfort zone of Vueling. And then for Horizon 3, I was working on this complete crazy shit and I remember.
Speaker 1:Give an example or two.
Speaker 2:I remember. So this is a true story. We had reframed the vision of Vueling and Vueling said we want to have the best customer experience, low cost airline with the best customer experience, and blah blah, and I didn't find that very inspiring. So, with my team, we flipped it and we rethought the assumptions underlying this vision and then we came to the conclusion that it should be. An airline is in the business of making connections everywhere every day, and it's so. And coming to that conclusion, we said, okay, that opened up the space. So we started to see how can we connect people more with other ways than just bringing them from airport A to airport B. And then we did some research, and this was early 29. And we did some research and we found something. So I went to the CEO of Welling and I said I have a brilliant idea. I have a small company and they do something in online connections. We need to invest in them, and they are called Zoom. No way, yeah, yeah yeah, no way.
Speaker 2:And the CEO looked at me like wow, she's crazy. And so we were not allowed to do any more research. And a year later, no one was in the plane and everybody was Zooming. So, yeah, Lost opportunity. Yeah, but that's for me. An innovation team should work on all these three things, or at least an organization should have teams working on these three horizons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like your approach to innovation because it's let me put it bluntly, it's no bullshit, it's straight to the point. It's like your book, right, it's short, straight to the point and um. So most business books are full of fluff. It's hard to separate the grain from the chaff, or they are like I don't know if you're familiar like. One of the books that I just don't like but people seem to love is the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck by Mark.
Speaker 2:Manson.
Speaker 1:So that book was a perfect blog post with 400 filler pages.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's just like example after example after example, and most business books are like that. Very few business books deserve my recognition because it was like 80 pages of great stuff and then 400 pages of shit, of shit. Um, your content and your message has always been, has always struck me. As you know, you're probably familiar with base camp or 37 signals. They're no nonsense, no bullshit. They've got like very short books as well, that they are basically just blog posts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that they have read, adapted a little bit, and so there are small pills of wisdom to call them, and easy to read, like maybe in a day you read them through and all of it is actionable, all of it like you don't have to actually spend hours and hours trying to understand a concept. It's like, oh, no meetings or no email, or one free day a week, stuff like that. Good, simple concepts and, uh, I don't know. I think these, your value spirit, is finding more acceptance in the general public, because it resonates with people, because it's genuine and authentic, like is that something permeditated or just came to be, like naturally and organically?
Speaker 2:like this so, uh, I studied mathematics.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, yeah quite a plot twist yeah, yeah, but the reason why I say that is that I was not like a natural born uh, I didn't have to read anything and I understood it. I had to work for it, but still I managed to get my degree there. What mathematics learned me is there is always a solution. Just try what, the first. If the first thing is not working, try the next and the next. So it taught me there is always a solution which comes in handy with innovation, and I'm not scared for complex stuff.
Speaker 2:But during my four years or five years at university, I also had the opportunity to pick some courses myself. So we were allowed to do that and everybody was was choosing this kind of traditional classes and I looked at psychology and stuff like that and I then I found a course which was, um, I don't know how you call it, journalism, but then scientific journalism, and then I had assignments that I had to interview like physicists who were doing a PhD on a topic I had no idea about, and then I had to write down a piece that everybody would understand. So that really pushed me to translate really complex stuff to basic stuff that everybody could read, and I think that was a seed that was planted. That I really like to do.
Speaker 2:I like to translate complex stuff into very simple, easy to understand things, because I also learned during my corporate career that if it's going to be complex, people don't accept it, they walk away and nothing ever happens. But if you make it easy to understand and fun and maybe also inspiring or maybe even pushes for some critical thinking or yeah, maybe sometimes provoking, then something happens right. Then other people you tap in their emotions and then you can build on that forward. So, um, long, long answer. But I love to create, so I also do a lot with visuals. Sometimes it's just much better to have one visual than 10 pages, so I also put a lot of time in. When I'm on stage and doing keynotes, I always have a lot of visuals and people always say that they like my visuals, because I think that is also a way to communicate a message.
Speaker 1:In fact, I think it's kind of complex to try to explain your methodology, because one thing you mentioned that really resonates with me is you don't have an ideal customer profile. You don't have an idea, like you work for NGOs, you work for startups, you work for corporates, you work for this and that which is sort of like what we do here, like when they ask me like who's your ideal customer? So like I don't know, I don't know, like not that I don't know, I do know. It's like pretty much everybody is. If, if you want to work with me, you're my ideal customer, right, but we don't have a prepackaged solution for sports companies or for SMBs or for public administration. Why? Because we do bespoke stuff. It's very artisanal, right? I've got the feeling that yours is the same approach, right? You don't have a prepackaged methodology. You have some common points, right? But you enter a company and it's a consultation process, right? How do you start building something for a company from day zero, for instance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that you say that, because I really don't believe there is a one size fits all approach to anything. So whoever wants to sell you a one a one size fits all approach, I would walk away immediately if I would be a company.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah, right For innovation, like you say in general.
Speaker 2:I mean in general, I, because I do, I believe in there are frameworks that you can use, but you you have to make it modular, right. So I, I have like a lot of tools I can use, but it's not like okay, clients, are we going to do a, b, c, d? No, I'm like I think you need this framework and maybe that approach, and then I do this workshop to get create the right mindset. And then, with another customer, it's like totally different because, yeah, I've seen so many different kind of leadership styles and environments that I think it's much more valuable to.
Speaker 2:But typically what I do is, when I have long-term collaborations with organizations, I try to get a sense of the organization. So I visit the plans or I visit the organization several times and I try to work with teams so that I really get a much better understanding of what they are about and what the people are about and what the culture is. And then I come to some solutions or I start working, but my assignments always start very vague. They call me and like, hey, simona, we need to do something with innovation or change, can you help us? And then I always say, oh, yeah, sure, and that's how it starts and we both know it's their source, sort of like a trust base. Like she has done well in the past, so she will do well here too. And I believe that every organization you have a lot of people who are motivated. You have a lot of rebels Some are hidden who can help you forward, to get the organization moving forward.
Speaker 1:That's a perfect assist, because I was going to ask you know your methodologist. You said like it's not prepackaged. At the same time, you're also like rebellious in nature. You've got these not aggressive but a bit like blunt opinions and so that come across as easy to dismiss by a big corporation like, oh no, we don't like that profile. It's a hard sell, right? Yeah, it is. So. You know, it's mostly you start working for our company because of recommendation, because of your credentials in the past. So, but how do you measure the impact of your projects? Is there any sort of standardized KPI in all of the projects that you've done so far?
Speaker 2:True answer.
Speaker 1:I assume it's no, there isn't right.
Speaker 2:No, but my clients are always very enthusiastic. So yeah, how do you measure?
Speaker 1:the return on investment, but my clients are always very enthusiastic. I mentioned the return on investment in this kind of project. I don't really ask this to innovation people and most of the time it's like well, we don't know. Or sometimes it's just like revenue and, for instance, corporate venturing right or corporate innovation. It's like usually something will not work but because they have an innovation department they've got better employee retention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's enough. Yeah, right, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I worked for Chanel, right? Did you know or not? Chanel?
Speaker 1:Chanel. Yeah, I remember that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny because, well, you only see this, but I never have a bag or so I'm not like the typical Chanel person. Yeah, and then they asked me, hey, would you like to help us out? And I was like, are you sure? Because, well, look at me. And I also said, like, my company name is Rebella, are you really? That's not just because it sounds nice. And they say, yeah, yeah, we really need that. So I helped the CIO of Europe for two or three years and my main assignment was to boost the innovation mindset of the team. How do you measure that? So I gave workshops and I experimented in some boutiques and stuff like that, yeah, but people were starting to ask different kind of questions because I was always challenging them. So maybe that was enough for the CIO that he saw that his team was growing, or yeah, yeah, because that's that's the thing, like in innovation.
Speaker 1:Like, for instance, I remember in that event in corporate summit 2020, one of the somebody shared that I don't remember which was it Definitely I think it was not you but somebody said like look, one of the hard truths of corporate innovation is that just by saying that you're innovating, the share value goes up and that's enough. You're getting paid back and feedback and you know price per share, exposure or advertising yeah I'm like, wow, that is terrible yeah, at the same time it's like oh, it works, you know yeah, but, and so I really don't like that.
Speaker 2:So early on we talked about result driven and I get really excited if I accomplish something, if I really am able to make a change. But for me, making a change is not only implementing a new service or improving something or coming up with a total new business idea, getting more confident in that they can be themselves, that they are able to ask questions that they didn't dare to ask before, that they start to think more critically, that they learn how to do that in a constructive way. So that's not destructive, because I also know some rebels who can be quite destructive. I've been there too. Sounds like me, but I think yeah, so that's also for me a big result, and I get quite a lot of messages from people who say so.
Speaker 2:I also write this newsletter every two weeks. I don't know if you have seen it, but it's called Ask Dr Rebel, and then people can ask me any kind of question about rebellious behavior. And it can be a rebel, but it can also be a coworker or a manager, and what I try to do is give like a different kind of perspective on a topic. So the other day I wrote something about yes, but, because everybody's always complaining about people who say yes, but, but I think they're very valuable.
Speaker 2:Well, you need them. You don't need them during ideation, but you need them during implementation, or uh. So people have ideas about rebels and I try to flip that and I try to say but look at the good side of this kind of behavior, yeah, so for me, a great result is also creating an environment where people can be themselves when there are rebels. They are not avoided or but that they're actually embraced and that their skills are actually used to make the team result even better.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, but certainly team satisfaction is not how we say it. Like doesn't sign contracts, right. There must be something else, at least in the short term. We know innovation might take time. Some innovation might be like reflect on the branding and it comes back seven years after you've left the company, right. But there have to be some sort of like goals or milestones or KPIs you have to hit, Otherwise they don't renew your contract, Right? So how do you approach this? Is that something that your clients define? You define Like how does it work in your methodology?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I'm results oriented and I don't know, like maybe I'm being too much of an engineer oriented and I don't know, like maybe I'm being too much of an engineer.
Speaker 2:It's um, uh, I, with many clients I don't have like a real specific kpi, as crazy as it sounds, and, and some clients it's. Then it's me who decides to stop the contract, and not the client. Most often, most often after two, three years, it's like okay, the energy is out. Now I think I'm I've I've get the ball moving or get the things moving, and now it's up to you. And during the two or three years that I'm working with with organizations, I also try to um, lead, guide people or learn people how to facilitate and stuff like that, so that it still can continue when I'm away. So, um, I teach people how to do things, um, and then after two, three years, then my time is. Then for me it feels like okay, I think now is the time to leave. So most of the time it's me who's leaving, it's not the client who says okay, simona, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:So you're creating some sort of sense of scarcity as well, like, or putting some sense of urgency that, look, I typically don't renew my contracts after year two, and so that signals that you're in high demand, right, and there's somebody else waiting with a contract for you and they're like, okay, fine, we'll do whatever, right? Do they actually take action, or not really because they're slow movers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it depends. Different kind of clients different. So yeah, I don't know if clients think like that. It's just for me, I really want to do the best for the company and it's not that I want to create some kind of sense around me like, hey, yeah, it's maybe hard to explain and sometimes I have to think about my own. Sometimes I'm reflecting on what am I doing, what am I bringing for organizations, how are things going? Is this what I want or do I need to be more specific and define KPIs?
Speaker 1:But yeah, no worries, I don't know. I get the feeling because when I was freelancing 15 years ago Jesus Christ, that reveals my age I was like that just because I didn't need it, right, I was doing a project here and there I was like, ah, this project, yeah, this other e-commerce not interesting? Right, yet another website or WordPress? Like, no, not gonna touch that shit. Um, so I, I can totally relate to that and so if you play on your terms, it's much more fun.
Speaker 1:Um, let's, let's give a couple minutes to like the, the, the newsletter you mentioned and the book, right. Um, building a personal brand like you have built over the years, yeah, comes with a community, with a tribe, right, I don't know if that's intentional or not, but I didn't know about the newsletter, I knew about the book and so, but it comes also with a high price, which is the pressure of having to put out original content every now and then. I don't know what is your idea machine Like. Three months ago, I also launched my own personal newsletter, right, and I have big opinions that I cannot express on the Mars Base blog sometimes, and so it's more like personal stuff. Fine, there's a clearer distinction For you. Business and your own opinions are probably the same. Right, because you're a person and a personal brand, but not a company, right? Exactly, yeah, how do you, how do you work with that and how? How is the public react? Reacting?
Speaker 2:it's um, so I get my I. I'm overloaded with ideas, so there is no problem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there isn't so, and I get my inspiration from very different kind of sources, mostly not thick books, but every now and then, but a lot of podcasts I listen. I randomly listen podcasts, so sometimes it's like, okay, this is someone. I'm part of a WhatsApp group here in Holland and it's called the Podcast Club and a lot of podcasts are shared and it's a very diverse group. So a lot of diversity of podcasts and it forces me to listen to stuff that are outside of my bubble and it's fun because it brings me new stuff. Are outside of my bubble and it's fun because it brings me new stuff. So I get a lot of ideas and sometimes it's just a simple sentence that makes that's for me the start of a whole new newsletter. So now, for instance, I'm working on the newsletter about focus, because I think there's too much focus on focus.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think sometimes you need to let go. And then that's because I was in an organization and everybody was pushing each other and then someone was looking outside the window and then others were complaining about that and I said, said, well, probably this guy is getting now his ideas, and so what I try to do with my newsletter is make people think. So I just mentioned about, yes, but everybody's always complaining about that and I give the opposite perspective on that, and I think this is also what my brand is all about. It's like, okay, what I say, you don't necessarily have to agree with what I say, but for me, a discussion is not about who is winning the discussion, but a discussion is about that. You make the other person think Right, I love it when I have conversations. When I walk away, I'm like shit, I didn't think about it that way, and that's also what I want to do. That's also what my brand is about.
Speaker 2:And my books you say one book, I have three, it's a series. One book I have three, it's uh, it's a series. Um is I want to bring the rebel perspective, the, the rebel mindset, from different perspectives. So one is for the rebel, it's uh themselves, because it's called oh no, we have a oh no, I'm a rebel. Now what? Yeah? And and then I have one for managers. It's like, oh shit, our rebels are leaving. I want to bridge these worlds because I see so much polarization in the world in general, but also on the work floor, between rebels or people who can think differently, versus people who follow establishment, and I want to show that you need both and it's okay. So that's what my brand is all about, and then knowing that it's not hard to write, to find my topics and write or publish about that.
Speaker 1:From that perspective, Is that somehow like bringing you new clients Because you have become a thought leader, right? And so when you have a truly distinct voice like yours that creates a drive and that attracts also potential customers, like, hey, I like what she's saying, I want to work with her, right, uh, it attracts talent as well, but I don't know if you're hiring or you're still working alone, but uh, yeah, um, it happens to us. But uh also brings clients because you think differently yeah, and and so what I also said?
Speaker 2:it also pushes away clients because they're like, oh, she's too rebellious, but that's fine, because then we were the match in the first place. But I often get requests for keynotes because people read articles. I also publish for the largest management platform here in Holland. I write monthly columns for them, so that's also fun and um, yeah. But so what I also see is you asked me, so ask me about. How do you get to original content? Yeah, and it's what I struggle with a lot is that, for instance, on linkedin, you see a lot of posts that get thousands of likes and then I look at it and then I think the content is like it's fucking garbage, right, yeah, yeah, it's optimized for the algorithm I know, I know, but that I'm like I really don't want to go there, I don't want to play the game and then but but sometimes I'm like then I think I have written something really cool and it doesn't resonate.
Speaker 2:You really have to be resilient to keep going, because it's easy to quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me. I share that frustration. When I open LinkedIn and I see that mostly it's garbage, I'm like how is this fucking shit getting 10 000 likes? Um? And I put some interesting thought or like maybe the next event or whatever blog post. I spent five hours writing yeah, it gets one thumbs up yeah, I'm like this is horrible.
Speaker 1:At the same time, I'm thinking like well, in the long term, this other prefabricated chat GPD generated garbage will be dismissed, it will be forgotten, and the ones having like an authentic vision, solution, discourse and all of that, we will be highly esteemed. I would say, like we will be remembered. Right, yeah, we'll have detractors of course, many but it will be remembered because we are we're we're sharing original content. Yeah, not like stuff that it's framed to or design architected to kind of like fit in into algorithm but in two years it disappears because no one is going to like all of these bullet points with emojis and whatever like optimized for LinkedIn. It just doesn't resonate with anybody. Right, it's like nowadays you create stuff that creates outreach, it performs like. I tried a a few weeks ago. I did an experiment and within a couple weeks I posted three or four things out of my scope, but they created outrage, right? Yeah and uh, just to test the waters yeah and it went boom, it went massive right.
Speaker 1:And so now I'm starting to do some shit posting on LinkedIn, basically like ditching companies like Lobo and stuff like that, but it's just hitting massive scale. I'm like this is horrible. I mean it works to get my message out there. It's original content, don't get me wrong, but that's not what I want to be known for. Yeah Right, so you have these cognitive dissonance of like saying, saying like I really don't want to do that. At the same time, dopamine hits and the reach.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you leave off exposure, you have to do it, so I understand why people sell out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I still keep my rebellious mind. I'm like I'm going to stick with what I do. And then I don't care, but I don't want to follow the crowd here, and then I don't care, but I don't want to follow the crowd here.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to continue, but it's difficult and it's tempting to go along with what everybody else does, but yeah, it is difficult because, like well, I mean, if you there's this saying in innovation right, that there is if you follow everybody else's or someone else's paths, you're never going to go somewhere new, right, yeah, and so I understand. At the same time, it works. So sometimes you got to do it to get from A to B, because in point B you will have more resources and if you are rebellious too early, maybe that will close all of the doors. So it's a compromise, it's a trade-off that is very complicated to solve.
Speaker 2:Yes, we only know if we meet again in a couple of years, and then we can look back and then say, well, did it work or not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, I mean to your point, seeing like sometimes it just like it qualifies your clients right. I know like, for instance, we've been very political in certain things publicly as a company, and I know we're never going to work with certain companies because they will be like oh no, we don't want to work with them. Like 2017, when the Catalan independence process was going on, like we're super public about that, we're in favor, we're pro-Catalan independence, and we probably lost some potential clients At the same time, some companies were like we want to work with you guys.
Speaker 1:So it qualified. It just removed the filter. It accelerated the process, right? Maybe we lost some potential candidates that they will never work for us? I don't know. If you don't want to work with me because of my political views, then I don't want to work with you, right? I totally respect different opinions, but if you have a problem with that, then you don't have a place here. Simone, before wrapping it up, we got a signature question in the podcast that totally caught you off guard, because it totally catches everybody off guard. But it's basically what has been your most expensive fuck up in the company that you have to own up to it. It's got to be yours. Something you did, a decision of yours that was like, oh wow, yeah, that cost a lot of money to the company.
Speaker 2:Oh, shit, that's a difficult one.
Speaker 1:Take your time. I share thousands of my fuck ups every now and then, so probably one per episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, you asked the most expensive one, right? So that means yeah, or?
Speaker 1:it has to be expensive, like probably. But uh, some people say like, oh yeah, we totally squandered, like we built a prototype we didn't need and we never launched that. We spent like 100k on that or something like that.
Speaker 2:Well, when I was at Voiling there's one example, but there are more but when I was at Voiling, I had the vision to work on a platform that would recommend the opposite, so that you would not like the sort of like the recommendations, like the obvious things. If you like this, then you like that.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:I wanted to do, to have like a surprise in there. So I said I wanted to like that we have a recommender and then said, if you like this, and then come up with something very surprising, but still a match. But not something very surprising, but still a match. So we spent like, I think, 100,000 euros to work out that idea, because it was also based on personalization. So we needed to personalize and then say, okay, we're not going to do the obvious thing, but the non-obvious. But it was hard to get people convinced, but I'd spend like 100,000 euros on that, I think.
Speaker 1:Nice. Thank you for sharing. I remember we had Bisset Smarty who used to be the COO or CFO back in the day and he shared something about willing. He was in charge of the checkout process, for whatever reason, and then he tried something else, but in the process of doing so he removed the credit card validation and so for like a day they couldn't charge customers. They lost like I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of of of euros in revenue because people couldn't fucking buy the plane tickets.
Speaker 2:So yeah, exactly. And then it went viral, and then everybody yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, one more minute for you to share. I'm rolling out the red carpet here, so what have you got in store to share? Like, what can we expect of you? New books, new Plug in your newsletter as well, so? Anything you want to say and share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so books I started with one, it became three because someone said to me oh, it's going to be a series, so probably there are going to be more editions. I'm thinking about a rebel tool book, so that helps you to become more rebellious or to deal with rebels. There are already a lot of rebel tools on my website, so if you want a preview of the tools you can assess your Taylor Swift innovation-ness on my website and all that kind of crazy stuff. I do that for fun. My newsletter if you want to subscribe, you can subscribe on LinkedIn, but also on Substack, whatever you want, and I would appreciate if people would do that, if they really like it and sometimes let me know that they like it, so that all the effort I put in is also not for nothing. Right that you write for a whole day on the newsletter and then you don't get any response? So it would be nice if people also sometimes say, hey, that was a really nice thought or whatever that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me echo that I. I know the feeling, I shared a feeling and then when you ask people directly, they're like no, I totally love it, like I like that one and this one. When you talk about this and that, I'm like, then fucking reply to it, motherfucker because, it feels like talking to the void, you know, but I I understand. Like you don't know, you can actually reply to a newsletter, right yeah?
Speaker 2:and if you have friends over there in Barcelona or wherever who want a thought-provoking but fun keynote, they can also reach out to me. I think more rebelliousness on stage.
Speaker 1:I assume you don't get free flights from Willing for Life, right? Because? You haven't worked there and also not for KLM.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:But I did an assignment for KLM and that was during COVID, and then they had no money and I said, oh, you can pay me in business class tickets.
Speaker 1:And they did. Oh wow, I'm open to.
Speaker 2:How do you say that? Yeah, exchange, I'm open to. How do you say that to?
Speaker 1:exchange right, so it's kind of like swapping the services exactly nice. Simone, thank you, yes, thank you, for being here looking forward to. I will sign up to the newsletter and sounds like something interesting. Hopefully we can coincide in another event exactly in Barcelona. That's it, thanks thanks for the time and Coinsight in another event, exactly in Barcelona.
Speaker 2:That's right, thanks. Thanks for the time.