Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
Beyond the AI demo: Turning prototypes into real businesses
Turn your AI demo into a real business.
In this episode of Life on Mars, real founders share their experiences, strategies, lessons, and mistakes behind building scalable AI startups and growing products beyond the demo phase.
Join Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit (CEO of MarsBased) as he sits down with Ricardo Ghekiere (Founder of BetterPic) and Tanya Van Gastel (from Multiverse AI) to discuss the hard truths about scaling AI products, how to build a sustainable business, and what it takes to move from prototype to profit.
🧠 What you'll learn:
- How to turn a prototype into a profitable AI business.
- Marketing tactics that still work for AI companies (SEO, affiliates, etc.).
- The difference between side projects and scalable startups.
- Why one-time payments are a funding trap for AI companies.
- Subscription models, team culture, transparency, and avoiding common startup mistakes.
💥 Whether you're launching your own AI product or seeking to avoid common traps, this episode is packed with real-world advice that will help you build something that lasts.
🔔 Subscribe for more episodes on AI startups, SaaS growth, tech entrepreneurship, and product development.
📺 Watch more episodes here:
[Link a la playlist de YouTube]
Episode Highlights:
- 00:00 – Intro: Why most AI tools don’t scale.
- 01:42 – Meet the guests: Ricardo Ghekiere & Tanya Van Gastel.
- 03:10 – The AI demo trap: Why cool tools often die early.
- 06:45 – Going from product to company: The real transition.
- 09:30 – Challenges scaling a one-time payment product.
- 12:00 – Subscription vs. one-off pricing in AI startups.
- 14:35 – The importance of marketing early (SEO, affiliates, and more).
- 18:20 – How BetterPic grew without paid ads.
- 21:50 – Why many AI founders avoid the hard stuff (distribution, customer support...).
- 25:10 – Culture and transparency in remote teams.
- 28:05 – Fundraising as a solo founder: Lessons from Ricardo.
- 32:40 – Turning an AI project into a real business: Final thoughts.
- 35:00 – Outro and where to find the guests.
👥 Guests:
👉 Ricardo Ghekiere – Founder of BetterPic
👉 Tanya Van Gastel – From AI Sheets, Multiverse AI
🧑🚀 Hosted by: Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit – CEO of MarsBased
🎬 You can watch the video of this episode on the Life on Mars podcast website: https://podcast.marsbased.com/
Hello everybody and welcome to Live on Mars. I'm Alex, ceo and founder of Marspace, and in this episode we bring you Ricardo Hekir, founder of BetterPic, and we also bring along an old friend from the podcast, tania Van Gastel, from the multiverse AI, to discuss a lot of things AI, image generation, AI wrappers, bootstrap companies, remote raising funds for a previously established bootstrap company, and much more. So, without further ado, let's jump right into this episode. I like how you said amazing at the countdown. Funny is you're not American and I saw this meme the other day.
Speaker 1:That's like how different cultures they react to the different levels of quality of stuff. And it was like middle ground, quality, low quality, best quality and kind of like Americans are like low quality is like garbage. And then everything else is awesome, like from 2 out of 10 to ten out of ten it's awesome or the best thing ever, right. And then there was like europeans, which is kind of like more like middle ground, and then eastern europeans, which is like everything is garbage, right, everything could get, could go wrong, and maybe there's like 10 out of 10. It's like well, we'll see, you know I don't know I think it's
Speaker 2:like a half belgian, half taiwanese person. Everything is like, let's be optimistic about this at this point. You know. So like we try to like make sure everything like runs smoothly, I think being like half taiwanese automatically just makes you it will be okay. Everything will be okay Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm not familiar with Taiwanese culture so I don't know. For me as a Mediterranean, for me it's like everything else is hard to comprehend. For me I understand that five out of five, five out of 10 is good, zero out of 10 is garbage. 10 out of 10 is amazing. But like I don't understand how people like 3 out of 10 do it so like yeah, it's good or great. I don't understand that Some culture are too optimistic. Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is like how Germans are like, if it's a 10 out of 10, it's okay.
Speaker 1:It's okay, yeah, yeah, you're right. Having lived in Germany, I can definitely say that.
Speaker 3:I can definitely say that it's like, yeah, yeah, it's okay for now you know, or or I realized uh that uh the time you're also half and I'm also half mexican, now belgium. So we maybe have like two personalities coming in. So if I always say, if I'm late, I'm mexican, if I'm like on time or like too early in belgium, basically. So that's uh, that helped in the quotation in that sense I swear half belgians are doing everything like.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're watching formula one, but there's max for steppa, who's half belgian. There's lando norris, who are half belgian. Me and ricardo are half belgian. There's a yeah.
Speaker 1:You're taking over the world. But that's definitely something interesting because in business and I don't want to go off this tangent, but it's definitely something that is worth discussing with people Maybe having these kind of profiles where you half and half, or the concept of a third culture kid I think that's also a thing where your mom is from Colombia, your dad is from Germany and you're born in Italy, something like that, you're a third culture kid. I think it's cool, like that, and how these people navigate the business intricacies of dealing with Germans or dealing with Americans and like, wow, working in Russia and stuff like that. And for us as an international company, it's like, oh, wow, now I get to put on the hat of I'm working with Americans today. But this morning I had a meeting with catalans. It was like everything was so pessimistic all the time. It's like, yeah, it's like catalans, like everything is going to shit. Um, basically so, but anyways, welcome to um.
Speaker 3:I guess, yeah, if you're more open, if you're half, because, like, if you're once growing up, you kind of like trying to figure out who you are. Am I like more belgian and I'm more mexican? Am I more taiwanese? And so you're trying to figure out more. I think you're more open to different culture than open to different views. Because of that, because you're still trying to figure out, am I really more belgian than mexican? How much percentage would that be?
Speaker 1:you can use it as your army knife, right, so his army knife. Like for me for certain, for certain situations, I like playing the German guy, even though I'm not German, I don't even have German blood. But you know, having some far family from Germany, having lived there for three years, I can play the German guy when I want, and so I can use that to an advantage. So, yeah, I can see that how this could be positive. Sorry, tanya, I cut you off.
Speaker 2:No, no, be positive. Sorry I cut you off. No, no, I completely agree and I agree like it's one of those things also, just like you know, having lived abroad uh, for anybody who's like lived abroad, like you said, with germany, it will inherently make you feel like you have a little piece of that place with you and you become like culturally fluent and able to deal with like different situations, navigating, like very different kinds of people, whereas, like, if you never kind of like lived abroad, you maybe haven't had that like friction, but that friction helps you grow a lot, you know, I really think it makes you problem solve like crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I always say when I'm eight, when my kids are 18, I'm going to ship them somewhere outside of the country. Just like you know, you're on your own now fix yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 1:And also you can. It makes you more flexible to run remote or like nomadic companies, right? Because at a certain point maybe I know part of Tania's story. I know you lived in China and now you're living in Barcelona, but you were racing in Belgium and whatnot, so I guess that it makes you super flexible to. Oh, now I'm going to be spending like five years in Mexico or something like that, five years in whatever country. Why do we Enough tangents. We've got enough tangents. I think we've broken the ice plenty. So welcome to the show. Welcome Tania for the second time. Welcome Ricardo for the first time to Life on Mars.
Speaker 1:We wanted to discuss BetterPick because we like giving visibility to these kind of projects, that often they don't get a lot of press and I don't know the specifics of the company, but remote companies, bootstrap companies, service-based companies, which is not your case. You have a product, but in our case, for instance, we don't get a lot of press coverage because we sell services. What's the sexiness in that? Right? But a podcast so specific and so niche like ours, where you have a lot of makers and builders in the audience, they're super interested in these kind of companies. As a matter of fact, I was just checking and Tania's episode has got like 3x more downloads than the rest of the episodes, which I think it's very interesting. So thank you for that. Let's introduce a little bit better peak. Probably I will have introduced that in the intro. I don't know, but what's your one minute pitch, ricardo?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a funny story because I think if you listen to tanya's and mine, we might have some similar. You know epithet in that sense because, uh, you know multiverse and better pick where you're still competitors in that sense. So I think it's a really cool episode to have, but we turn self-heat into professional headshots, as tanya does. So I think that's uh, it's a really deal.
Speaker 2:I just want to say and state this I am here to learn because I will stay straight off the bat the Multiverse AI did really well. We're a team of three people, but we did about 350,000 revenue total, whereas Ricardo did upwards of 5 million. So let me re-emphasize I am here to learn.
Speaker 1:Who let you?
Speaker 2:in you, let me in you, let me in Alex. I'm here to learn.
Speaker 1:No, no that's a fun thing. It's the first time that we have something like this. I know that you are with AI Sheets right now, but as a founder of the Multiverse AI, it makes sense Like how did you two actually became friends? That's my question.
Speaker 2:Let's do Ricardo's pitch first.
Speaker 1:We're not friends we are actually. But let's do.
Speaker 2:Ricardo's pitch first, and then Awesome yeah. Ricardo, if you like, why don't you share a little more about the numbers? It's like insane, it's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 3:Ricardo's story is like unbelievable because they started like a year ago Exactly, I think, like a year and a half now or a little bit less indeed. So we started really in the summer 2023. I would say we're doing about 1.5K in revenue Last month sorry. Now we're closing up the month 270k per month, projected to do, indeed, about 4 million this year. Only in that sense. So, yeah, we're somewhere in the middle of, you know, hyper growth and also like planning for the future in that sense. But, yeah, we're a full team of now 17 people fully remote, doing about 270K per month. It's been a crazy journey, I would say, but I think the most important thing, we built a really, really great team around the product and I think that's also the reason why we're here still.
Speaker 1:Good. Is that entirely bootstrapped? If I got it correctly, good.
Speaker 3:So that is entirely bootstrapped. We are going to raise some funds, we're in the middle of our fundraising, but up to this point we're fully bootstrapped.
Speaker 1:Good. So congratulations on being bootstrapped, on being remote as well, and on what you have built, Because I think it's not easy. One of the things that we discussed with Tanya in her episode is that this space it's pretty crowded of a lot of companies just getting to demo phase. It's very hard to go from demo to real product, Up to demo, up to the demo stage. How did you assemble it? What was the initial team and what was required to make to that point? Was it just kind of like a chat GPT wrapper or majority wrapper or something like that? What did it take to beat the stage of demoing only?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I call it the valley of debt because that was basically the journey I feel not just us but many people went through. And the valley of that is when I bought the company, december 2023, from the co-founder and cto still today, and so that was the first of december and I think on the 22nd of december you know it was christmas showing it to my parents, like look what we have. And so they they showed, I showcased the application. They said it kind of looked like a school website, which technically it kind of did uh, and I showcased and they got the results and it was just pure badness.
Speaker 3:Like it was so bad and tanya probably knows it as well like the first months and years.
Speaker 3:Like it's so bad, like you almost feel ashamed to like sell it. Uh, I think our refund rate back in the days was about 10, 10 to 11, so it was just so bad like you're almost ashamed to do it. But I did feel like it was the question what is a time where it will be good enough? And then, if it's good enough, you won't see a reason why it would go back to professional photographer. So you kind of have to push the limits and like just keep on bootstrapping until that point where the technology catches up, because it's just a catch up play. At some point the technology will catch up and then you have this hyper growth which we experienced from around September-ish last year. The technology caught up and then we kind of scaled from there, but before that it was very bad. You just have to take the bet that you're building towards something that will scale at some point and make it as good as possible in that sense and just refund people that were just very angry at us saying this is crap.
Speaker 1:What was the initial team? Then you mentioned a CTO.
Speaker 3:The initial team was me, a CTO. I had the advantage that I had I still own a marketing agency until two days ago. So that is something we use to leverage as a marketing team. So we had a lot of marketing knowledge in and I think that's also why we grew so fast is because we had some hours of the team or the inside better pick in that sense. So that is what we leverage in order to operate the business.
Speaker 1:To think about like this kind of. So the reason I wanted to focus on the demo stage is that my impression is that we launched too many AI projects that are going nowhere and we sort of polluted the web. Let me share a story, personal story. Two weeks ago I saw a tweet that was something like oh, it was super outrageous. Somebody like ranting about something. It's like wow, I could create a death metal song with these lyrics. Right, and as you can tell, I like death metal by my outfit death and black metal.
Speaker 1:So the thing is like I Googled or I perplexed it, which is not a very good verb AI song creators and I opened 10 of them, Six of them, they were exactly the same thing, changing the colors, Like Verbatim. It was the same copy, yeah, and they didn't work. The other ones there were two of them that seemed to work, but they were super expensive. So, like they require, you know, registration, credit card, this and that configuration, I said like it's too complex, I just want something like 30 seconds, something stupid. And the two that seemed to not require any of these, I got to the point of creating the song and by the moment I clicked generate, it gave a server error. So it was clearly a dead company. This is there, my point being like hey, is it too easy to create and launch these kind of projects nowadays, and how many fake competitors have you found? This is a question for both of you. Actually, I've had.
Speaker 2:You want to shoot first yeah, I mean honestly, alex, I feel like polluting the web it's. You know, it used to happen in little silos, right, like we would have our little MySpace or like WordPress or blog or whatever, and you'd pollute the web on the little like subdomain. But now you have lovable, you have bold, you have all of these things and people pollute a domain. I don't mind that. To be honest, like I'll be super direct and say that I kind of love how people are able to bring their vision to life, um, and really be just like super creative with like anything that they want to build. Like this has never, ever happened before. You know, I can give you an example.
Speaker 2:My dad is the kind of person who's always like engineers are so dumb, why don't they just like build this? And then he calls me and he's like Tanya, now you know how to build things, why don't you just build this? And I'm like, well, he's the idiot guy. Well, the problem you are talking about will take about like 600 hours to build, not even like maintain, and then it will still only work like 80% of the way. That's what I used to tell him and he would be like I'm very unhappy about it. And then now I tell him like well, you know, you can try and do it with AI and you can talk to it and understand what it's like trying to tell you, and it can tell you why it's not possible or how you can go about doing it. And so I always think of these things, as I think it's awesome that people are able to build, to bootstrap. It's given so many people so many options to actually start a company, people who are not technical, who do not have financial funds, who don't have other companies going for them, and I include myself as one of those people.
Speaker 2:And I would actually say that, like now, building is the easy part, you know, and for a long time, building was a hard part, but because building is now the easy part, marketing is the hard part, because no two companies are alike. Of course, you can go in and be like, hey, lovable, make me this, like sunoai, death metal copycat, leave it there, and it does absolutely nothing. And in the end, the people who are only making money are lovable, right, like the people who like sell the shovels during the gold rush, um, but then people take it further and they invest in marketing and the difference between actually having a company and making it into having a business and just having a platform is dedication, commitment and time. That's like the true core of the thing. So I'm gonna tell you, like I really don't mind. I kind of love that people are doing this and that there's this like opportunity for everybody to like partake in their curiosity and like it.
Speaker 2:As for headshot generators, I have a number in my head. I'm going to write it down and then let's see how much Ricardo says. I'm literally going to write it down now.
Speaker 1:I'm loving this.
Speaker 2:Let's go.
Speaker 1:Make your guesstimate, see if your market research is accurate or not. Ricardo, what's your take?
Speaker 3:I would definitely agree with Tanya. I think the zero to one stage got very easy and that's why everybody's doing it. But there is a difference between building a side project and building a real business around it. And I always said and I knew when I was talking to many people in the space I said the reason why we're going to win is not just because we can build things, but because we can actually build a whole company around it. We've actually taken the time to really build a whole company team structure around it, vesting shares and all that stuff. So you don't just do that with AI coding. Basically, you cannot just convince 17 people to join in your vision by just saying I built this thing overnight. So I think there's a big difference between building a side project, and that's fine with most people. If you just want to build a side project which does I don't know two 3k per month and you're just, you know, having it as a side business, great, I think you should do it. I think there's going to be many projects of this, but the difference between doing 3K per month and really going to 300K per month is a very big difference and a very different mindset.
Speaker 3:From the beginning we said we're building a company, we're not just building a side project. And if you look at our market, my guesstimate is 80 to 90% of these tools exist. You'll find a website. You'll find something great exist. You'll find a website. You'll find something great. Some are even copycats. You can literally see one is just like the exact same thing as a competitor, which is great to see. Then I guess you've made it as a competitor if they just copy the whole style.
Speaker 3:But 80 to 90% of the competitors we actually talk to they're just like overnight, you know buildings. And even now we have. We have a website called BetterPick slash API. We have people reaching out to say we want to build a competitor of you. Can you deliver us the API? Which is such a funny conversation. We do that, okay. So we're not going to do that, but you know, thanks for joining the call in that sense. And it's this money. We see these calls as there's money of these people just like oh, I see there's some money in this market, let me just put some money against it and see what happens. Basically, that's not building a company, that's just building to see if it kind of works out or not company. And so I would say, in the real space I see max of six to 10 real competitors where I'm thinking like wow, and then two to three that always come back when we're competing, but for the rest there's not really competition in that sense how many players do you guesstimate?
Speaker 1:let's see if you I am.
Speaker 3:I'm writing it down as well. Okay, at the count of three.
Speaker 1:At the count of three, we'll reveal the number write it down, let me know, let me know when you're ready. It's funny.
Speaker 2:Mine is based on being like the lead marketer and looking at every single, like listicle listing, backlinks, like all of that. Okay.
Speaker 1:Let's do something. We'll not say the number, we'll just show it, so that we incentivize people to watch the recording, not just listen to the freaking audio podcast. The audio is doing okay, youtube is doing terribly, so let's Alright a count of three. You ready One, two, three. Show your numbers. Okay. I can see Tania's. I cannot see Ricardo's.
Speaker 3:I cannot see yours. I'm going to do it like this.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay Okay.
Speaker 3:You didn't see it Okay, so mine is. So they'll have to listen to the one that Tanya guessed.
Speaker 2:My guess is 153. No, it's okay, I will say it was very close, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Good, definitely Good, definitely good, that's definitely true, but how?
Speaker 1:many of them do you reckon they are alive now? Alive and working well. So, going back to what Tanya shared, yeah, like we used to do that with Blogger and WordPress and like that. But the problem we had up until now was, whenever we democratize content creation, mostly it was in the written form, and written form means blogs, basically, and blogs and articles usually have got a publish date and you can see whether they are outdated or not.
Speaker 1:The problem with launching a website is you don't know whether it's outdated or not. There's somebody behind it until it breaks or it doesn't function properly, right. And so if they are side projects from companies, usually you shut us from individuals. You shut them down because paying a domain is expensive, Paying the servers is expensive and the tooling behind it, right. But if it's like a side project of a company, you might not even know that it's still there. You know it's. Oh, you're paying 300 a year, something like that. It's like whatever, we'll just leave it there. It's more costly for me to shut it down than to actually just leave it there to rot. So how many of these do you reckon they are alive and functioning? You said something like between like three and five, or something like that. Or these are the top notch.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think the top ones are like six to 10. The ones that are really working 20, I would say. Or I would say an extra 10 that are trying to make it work, I would say the rest is you can kind of see that as well on the website, like if they do a lot of SEO and all that stuff, like you can see the movement. Basically it's not just the website. I look at the movement. Are they publishing new blogs? Are they advertising? Are they posting on social media? The ones that are actively pushing? That's really 20, I would say that's about it, because otherwise you can't survive in the space. In that sense, you need to have some competitive advantage in distribution. If you don't have it, the average order value of these things is not like $200 or $500. It's between $20 to maybe $50 in that sense. So you can't just go into mass media. You need to be very strategic in your choices, which is mostly the organic ways, and if you're not posting organically, you're probably never going to be profitable at any point.
Speaker 1:Are you or were you using any competitor tracking tools, like there was Compite back in the day that got acquired by SEMrush, if I remember correctly or are you doing this manually Because it's hard to keep up with the changes?
Speaker 3:SEMrush. For us it's SEMrush. I mean, we had the agency license before. We used to do it for clients, so we just added ourselves as an extra client in that sense.
Speaker 1:So you were tracking Tanya right.
Speaker 3:That's how you I always said, that's, I think, how we got in, because you asked us how we got in touch. I think that was also the reason. I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but I do remember me reaching out to you, tanya, I believe because I'm very open with our metrics. Like you can actually go to my linkedin. You'll see every single metric we have, like nps, how much we're growing, how much burn we have, how much profit we're making. Like all of that is open in the wild for us.
Speaker 3:Um and so for me, jumping on a call with tanya, some people would call it competition and some people, when I jump on call, they just mention metrics like why are you saying these metrics? I'm like, first of all, I think we should share in the world and kind of have conversations like what's happening, what's not happening, and second of all, you know, one is you knowing the metric. The other one is actually doing something about it and like trying to catch up. Like it's like saying it's like these people that have these business ideas, like this business, I'm not going to tell anybody because it's such a great idea, but it's never going to work because the idea sticks in their minds.
Speaker 1:I like the idea of sharing the metrics, but, as it turns out and my experience reveals that most people just share the metrics on the way up right. They don't share them on the way down. Quite recently, though, Buffer had overcome a plateau and you're probably aware of Buffer as a company and they're super transparent with their metrics and for a couple of years they were stagnating on their growth right and they even had this slow decline, and they kept on sharing the metrics, and I can see reasons for not doing that. But in spite of all of them, they said like fuck it, we're a transparent company, we're going to say it like it is and we're not going to hide anything. And if the company is not growing or it's slowly hitting a small decrease in size or in revenues or in growth and all that, we're going to share it anyways. And eventually, after a couple of years, like this, or 18 months, they hit growth again.
Speaker 1:So that was a risky move because on the one hand, you know, I think you have to calculate upside versus downside, and mostly on the way up, you've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain, kind of like. Oh, it shows like your high growth company, it's appealing to new hires, for talent, Maybe it shows a position of strength and stuff like that. But as a downside, you're giving maybe too much, not information for competitors, but you're ruling yourself out of a potential acquisition because it just drives the price down, because they're able to see everything right from the get-go, and so maybe the potential acquirer will not go for you it will go. Okay, these guys, we have this one already there and it's much better, something like that. I don't know how intentional is that and do you plan to keep it for long-term?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me, I want to keep this until we acquire it, basically, which is also the goal. Everybody knows that. Okay, you know even further, our metrics are, you know, to the public, are public, but even internally, everybody knows each other's salaries, how much equity they have, every single metric we spend. Like we have a Google Sheet, everybody has access to it. Everybody can see exactly what we're spending at what, who's making what, uh, what you're. You know what the budgets are, so you know.
Speaker 3:You cannot just take that away the next day because it's not like, oh, we're going down, okay, shutting down the sheet, basically, um, I think that is not going to be possible at some point. So once you start being transparent, you have to keep being transparent because otherwise it just would for me at least, would be very, feel very weird like, yeah, suddenly they're not sharing metrics anymore. What's happening here? So I would, even if we're downsizing or going down, I think it's good to have these transparent conversations. I think there are some conversations that you know maybe you don't want to have first at some point, I would say, but I think transparency goes a very far way and actually buffer is a great example. I love what these guys are doing. Also, they have the salaries open. When they were going down, they also said we're not firing anybody, we're just going to use it as a buffer. So I think you know if once you choose to be transparent, you have to keep being transparent, because you cannot just stop that from the day after.
Speaker 1:One of the downsides of terms are like, having been in business for 11 years and I, we haven't had any major issue with transparency. But I heard from other companies that being too transparent sometimes makes it more fertile ground for certain friction between team members, because they know each other's salary and like, oh, I, I've been for longer in the company, but this person has taken two years off on a maternity leave, for instance, and when she came back, blah, blah, like I have been here grinding it out for two more years and stuff like that, and I know the salary and you know, so it provides for more of these conversations. We haven't had any of these issues, luckily, but do you foresee that any of these things is going to be coming back to bite your ass in terms of transparency or not really?
Speaker 3:So not really, but I have a very good point on this one. So I see a lot of companies that weren't transparent and want to move into transparency, and that's where the bottleneck is.
Speaker 3:Because the problem is when you hire somebody and you overpaid or there's a disbalance too much between teams, then it becomes very tricky and I've seen a lot of companies want it to be transparent but then they know there's a few outliners so they can't be fully transparent. And also, for us, the biggest downfall that I have. I've seen a lot of candidates that are like I would love to have you, they're in the States, and it's just like twice the salary or three times the salary that somebody was asking. I was like, yeah, but that's not going to fit within the salary ranges that we're having right now, or I would need to justify it. So, as a founder, acquiring talent becomes harder because you have to justify why that cost comes in basically. So that is the downfall of being transparent with your salaries. On the other side, you do have appreciation coming back from all the team members, and for us we have unlimited holidays, so the exact problem wouldn't happen in that sense because everybody has unlimited holidays. But yeah, I do understand that that could be an issue.
Speaker 1:I have a question for both of you. One of the parallelisms to see with your projects is that marketing plays a huge part in your growth. Right, we can discuss product-led growth afterwards, but in the case of Tanya, she played very well the personal branding cards, right. In your case, you mentioned you leverage your position or your owning a marketing agency, right, how fundamental was that to the to the growth? So how did you actually use the marketing agency? Was it was the better pick and a spin-off of the marketing agency? Or you were just a shareholder of both companies and you said, like, fuck it, I'm gonna make a partnership or something like that? And uh, how did that play out? Because b2c is largely about you know, um, spending lots of marketing yeah, um, I can start with that one if you like.
Speaker 3:So for us I've started the marketing agency about eight years ago with the plan to own an agent or own a software. Five years later it took me eight years years, but still, you know that was always the plan from the start. So that was eight years ago. So even people joining kind of knew that was a playbook we were heading towards. So that shift wasn't that hard to make.
Speaker 3:I think the only difference is if you're starting from an agency, so we acquired the business with the agency and then we operated from there, and so the hard part is that as an agency you have double pain, because if you're starting a company, you're hiring somebody for it, you're basically paying. Let's say, just to make it very easy, you're paying $10K salary, for example, and so they're operating that, so your cost is $10K. But as an agency you know that there's a margin that you can actually charge the clients. So on that $10K salary you could be charging a client 20K. So you're actually not losing the 10K salary when he's investing or she's investing into the new business. You're actually having the double pain of actually shrinking your margin and actually shrinking your revenue from the agency.
Speaker 3:So that was for us the hardest pain, I would say, to kind of see that revenue shrinking while moving into things or not being able to take on new projects because you have your own project coming in. So I think that's the biggest pain as an agency owner, starting these things. But yeah, for us we had the advantage of having somebody very good in Google Ads and SEO. We had somebody very good in everything email marketing, paid social. We knew how to operate the marketing side of things. So that was, I think, our competitive advantage and we knew we were going to win because we knew, from the beginning, indeed, that it's going to be a marketing playbook, it's not just going to be technology playbook coming into play.
Speaker 1:Were you paying the agency as a client or?
Speaker 3:not really, I was the owner of the agency.
Speaker 1:No, I know I know, but the reason is we tried developing a product five years ago to this day and one of the, I think, failures we had, one of the fuck ups we had, is like we didn't treat it like a client. And I think we should have, because, first off, if you're not treating your own site project or a spinoff as a client, then you end up working only on spare hours. You don't give it like a fixed team. So we had a lot of rotation. We did it only when it was convenient, which at the end was never convenient.
Speaker 1:In the case of somebody or companies that they have this huge disparity in levels of skill, what do they do? Do you put the worst developers to work on that project and the project has got the worst developers and leave the best for the clients? Or you do it the other way around. Then the clients are upset because you just left the worst developers there and you put the best ones to the product and if it fails, you got suddenly two big fires right. That's not our case, of course, but also because you see it only as an expense and it doesn't generate any revenue, you have all the more reasons to put the last nail on the coffin. In our case there was a pandemic involved, or like fuck it, we're shutting down the project, but why did you not set it as a client or consider it as a client? And then we go back to Tania, because I think that was left unanswered.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, we did treat it as a client.
Speaker 3:I would say it was internally invoiced, in that sense, like we didn't really invoice it, but we did put like okay, because you're working on this, you can take another client kind of perspective. So we did treat it as you know, you can take this client on because, or we can't do any clients anymore because of this. So we did treat it like this in the beginning, and in the beginning it was less than more. The advantage we had is we were, you know, operating with shares, so people actually had a share in the company and so in the longterm that is more beneficial than the salary that they're making. In that sense, so, because of that mechanism coming into play, they would value a lot more doing this. The tricky part is, of course, that you have your best people on it. I would always put my best people on it because otherwise they will never get off the ground and mostly your best people can operate both at the same time and then at a certain point you do need to make a cutoff in that sense.
Speaker 1:So, yes, Thank you, tania. Going back to the previous question, which was the personal branding, you used a lot of LinkedIn because it was basically your platform, right? So you obviously didn't have any marketing agency behind, but you had your own knowledge as a former marketing person in your previous companies. So what was your playbook? And, in the case of Ricardo, what did you learn from him?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I learned a lot from Ricardo, but maybe the personal brand thing for me is a different kind of experience. I say that because I think being very honest and being very direct I think is part of the thing that I do on a lot of my sharing of my journey being a founder, about the things that I'm doing, that are working, that are not working, things that I'm struggling with, things that you know keep me up at night as I like, try to build a business, because it is a lonely journey. You know it is a lonely journey when you are doing it by yourself and you have no co-founders or you are fully remote and nobody else is really in your specific position. You're doing it by yourself. I found a lot of support in having a community of people who watch me on LinkedIn, where it's, I think, 120 subscribers or something. Maybe a video gets like 500 views and that seems so little until you think about 500 individuals actually watching you, because I can tell you directly like I get the craziest reactions to the things that I share on YouTube, where people are watching me for like 19 minutes on end. When do you ever get the privilege of somebody listening to you for 19 minutes nonstop. You never get that, that's just fact. And so when you're able to do that and when you're able to like, really like, share truth of your experience and maybe that is somebody who you know is thinking about starting a business, is fully in it, is in the same exact position as you and feeling that like difficulty and they hear that there's somebody else having that as well that's extremely powerful, and so for me it's almost like it's not a social thing, but it is something that I get an incredible amount of energy out of is those reactions is being able to share.
Speaker 2:I will also say that the personal branding thing, it's not a commercial thing. I think it's more like a long-term strategic bet. That's how I would put it. And I would put it that way because, as you say, there are a lot of dead websites now on lovable or whatever right, and you don't know how to gauge whether those are real or not. But one really great way to gauge if those are real is by having trust in a founder, and so I want to be a founder who can inspire trust with its clientele, and that's really great for B2B.
Speaker 2:So from Multiverse specifically, I can tell you that I don't think a significant amount of our sales from B2C came in through a personal brand or that that played a huge role. Let's say 10%. If that that's a random number, I'll just throw that out there. I think, for B2B, though, it is way higher. It is significantly higher and it is significantly more impactful. It is significantly higher and it is significantly more impactful.
Speaker 2:So, for example, like Google has bought like 80 headshots of us and the person who bought those headshots is connected to me on LinkedIn Coincidence Maybe, but probably not, you know. So it's one of those things where it's like oh well, I've seen continued, like consistent, I've consistently seen that this person has like talked about this, is committed to this. Let me go check out that product. If that leads to a sale from a big B2B person, that can be a really significant, significant like financial boost to the business.
Speaker 2:Of course, you know it really depends on, like, your ticket sizes and stuff like that, but I honestly think that you know, with the way that, like we're seeing social media these days, the way that like TikTok has like evolved, you know, and I see that as somebody who's like like just 30 years old and like sometimes opens up like short videos and I'm like, oh my God, there's like another half Taiwanese girl out in the world like sharing stuff about makeup or whatever.
Speaker 2:It's like that's nice. You know, I didn't know that that existed, but now I know that that exists and you know my specific profile, like being a woman who is also a founder, like both marketing as well as technical. That's it's pretty fucking rare and I hope that that becomes less rare, because whenever I see girls out there doing stuff like that, I'm like, yeah, I love that, let me connect and like let's have like coffee over zoom and immediately we'll always be like I know there's not that many, you know, but it is. It's really nice, I think to, to be able to have that kind of like platform and like share things with other people who may not have role models that look that much like them and can kind of see like, oh, she's kind of doing it. I'm only kind of doing it. Guys, we're talking to Ricardo who's doing like 4 million. I'm not there.
Speaker 1:You keep bringing it up.
Speaker 2:We can kind of do it.
Speaker 1:We didn't go into what you learned from him, but I'm going to be throwing a curveball to the both of you because I've never had competition directly on the same episode. So did you two copy anything from each other from the website? Oh, I like this. I'm going to be stealing this each other from the website. Oh, I like this. I'm going to be stealing this for my product on my website.
Speaker 2:I will tell you how I have seen some of Ricardo's execution, like the way that he kind of like conducts business. You know, because like I think it's a very, very thing. I've worked in other businesses before and you know I'm seeing a little bit right now on like inside, helping with like some consulting here and there, and so I think it's I think it's rare to see somebody who is as I don't want to use the word loving but I think like thoughtful to his like team, as Ricardo is. I think that's really rare and I think it's always really amazing when a team obviously really respects their CEO manager, because it's very clear how much that leads to like not only a boost in motivation but also like dedication to working hard and having like a common goal. And I also that's partially because of that transparency, because you know we've always in every company you have like significant politics right, like you hire smart people. Those people are able to then like be abstract and have goals and ambitions, and the only way to kind of like manage that is to have a really strong like executive presence that avoids that and makes it clear. And I think in Betterpick they do really, really well Like they really execute, and that's so rare. Like Alex, you've worked in Germany in like consulting Like you're going to know how rare that is. I worked in Chinese tech. Like I know how rare that is, and so I think that is a huge thing.
Speaker 2:And then, secondly, the ability to actually scale. You know, because of like being a team and that involves like really having your shit together and having SOPs for things and realizing that not everything is a one-off, that you just do once, but that actually nothing is a one-off that you do once. You like write it out on a doc and you put, you put it in like a tracker or something. You know. So because, like I remember when ricardo and me we got in touch and I think when we got in touch you were at like you were like right below us, you know, I think at that point we were doing like I want to say 35 000 a month and you guys were doing maybe like 15 or 20 and they were super transparent with their numbers and you just would fucking like see, like fly by.
Speaker 2:You know, like, at some point, like I think the last week, I was like ricardo, I want to talk to you about alex's podcast and it was like should I just introduce you as the founder who did like three million in the last year or something? And he was like no, no, it's $4 million now. And I was like what do you mean? It's $4 million now.
Speaker 1:What happened I?
Speaker 2:checked five days ago or something, and now you just added a one. I don't understand, but this is the pace of it and you cannot have that pace if you're a tiny team. That also has decided to not scale like that, and that is to some extent a decision, has decided to not scale like that, and that is to some extent a decision. But to a much bigger extent, I would also say that is an option that we didn't have, because we didn't have that skillset, that is a learned skillset, you know. And so I think, yeah, those things have been like super, super interesting to watch, because it's kind of watching somebody tackle a problem very strategically as an investor instead of really as an operator.
Speaker 1:So no copying from each other's website. Ricardo, you've received a lot of praise. Maybe it's time to get back. Say like Tanya, I totally ripped you off, like like I totally stole that from your website, so um.
Speaker 2:I will be telling you, ricardo, I do it all the time from competitors. I will be calling you Ricardo.
Speaker 1:I do it all the time from competitors. I'm not going to be hiding.
Speaker 3:Let me see what I stole basically. So I like to, I don't like to steal, but borrowing, you're going to give it back.
Speaker 2:What is it Like? Copycat steal artist borrow.
Speaker 1:Something like that. Yes, I'm not. I have the memory of a goldfish, so that's why I usually don't bring up the quotes.
Speaker 2:You know who we think stole from us? We think Aragorn stole from us the biggest players in the, in the industry. They are also like funded, I believe, and I I I remember somebody was saying like oh, I think they stole this like section of exact copy from us ah god right, that's kind of you were gonna say yeah I'm trying to steal what I stole.
Speaker 3:so I definitely like I I tried out every competitor in the space, even the the shitty ones in that sense, that even want to try, and I think you can always draw inspiration from your competition. I think I definitely looked at because I don't think we even had B2B before they had B2B. So I definitely went through the whole B2B flow to kind of understand what's going on. So I definitely like I wouldn't call it stealing, but I definitely went through spying in that sense. If you see Richard Dean in your database, that's me. So just wanted to let you know that is my alias on spying things. So if you see Dean Corp probably in your database, you know it's me. Basically, so competitors watch out. So I definitely went through the B2B flow and I saw a lot of cool stuff and I think part of like being an operator is deciding and as a company, deciding what you want to be and who you want to be for in that sense. So I think I saw a lot of cool things. I think you guys had even like a chat box where you can kind of say make me, you know, slimmer, or make me, you know, give me some sun. I think it was like a text box and so we discussed this heavily. It's like should we do this, should we not do this? And we as a company decide not to do it. And I think that's sometimes more important, like not what you're doing or what you're stealing, but what you're not stealing, in that sense, and that comes from the things that you actually value and you know want to be known, as I would say. So I would say I throw a lot of inspiration.
Speaker 3:On the b2b side, I think what I was most jealous about was your personal brands. I was like, oh, come on, say again, there she is. I think what stung me the most? I always. It was like it was like she somehow managed to like have customers post on LinkedIn and saying, yeah, I got this headshot from Tanya and it's amazing. And I was like guys, again, what's going on here? So I definitely haven't cracked that one. I love that one. I saw that passing by. I thought it was genius. I was like, oh yeah, we should have some kind of flow for this, but I think that is the one that I still want to steal. I think that's the word that I would use in this case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, buy hair company and that's it. You have it working for you because you actually can praise you a lot. Let's go to the last block because we're running out of time, but I really wanted to build up to this question, which I think it's a real meat and potatoes of these kind of businesses, is these kind of AI tools that appeal to large audiences and in the B2C space mostly and I know you've done like B2C and B2B but a lot of people just sign up to play with it or they use it once and then they fuck off forever. So there's a lot of turn. How do you keep growing your user base? What is like? What is your product led growth strategy? Like complementary solutions? Or how do you keep innovating and giving more value over time to your customers?
Speaker 2:You want to shoot first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think people really forget how much value there is in a one-time purchase kind of like setup. And I is in a one-time purchase kind of like setup and I say that because one-time purchase conversion rates are insanely high. It's really the beauty of like one-time payment is that conversion is super high and also your pipeline is not something you should be as worried about as maybe a lot of people think. So let me give you an example. The way that we did a lot of our marketing is through SEO as well as through affiliate SEO. So that really entails that we rank for things like best AI headshot generator. If you search for best AI headshot generator on Google, you know, if you search your best AI headshot generator on Google, you're going to get like a thousand hits, but the top five you'll probably find the multiverse AI in like half of them. You'll probably open up a link. It'll say like top 10 best AI headshot generator. The multiverse AI might be like one, two or three or whatever, but we'll be in that listicle and then people click in through that listing.
Speaker 2:And so if you think that one-time purchase is not as dependable, you first of all don't understand SEO and how much it is like actual real estate that does not fluctuate as much. And then, second of all, you don't actually understand how predictable people are, because I can tell you how much a certain keyword is searched every single month, in whichever country, and that data is fairly stable month by month. And so that is kind of the crazy thing. If you don't understand that, you might think oh, I think last month 50 people searched for the word purple apple and maybe next month 50 people searched for the word purple apple and maybe next month it will be 10 or zero. But that's not true. Actually, those patterns are way more predictable than we think, and we know that because we have all of that data in keyword banks such as Ahrefs. These are SEO banks that SEO people like me and like Ricardo probably use to basically understand what people are searching for.
Speaker 2:And it's incredible because the way that you see that manifest in, like companies that do one time purchase, is that your revenue stays pretty stable. As soon as you have cemented yourself in those real estate rankings, in those SEO rankings, you've bought the real estate. It's yours forever, like. The ranking will change, the area price will go up, will go down, but not even nearly as much as people may think. So it's not really a huge concern. I don't think it's really a superpower, honestly. That makes you able to charge a much higher price than you otherwise would and still get great conversion on your product and, a lot of the time, much better than super high churn and low monthly fees. So that's kind of my hot take.
Speaker 1:I'm going to kind of ask what's your take on this? What's the strategy actually? Because you plan to keep on growing and raise funds, so there's got to be like a good business case behind it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the funny thing is that we tried raising with BetterPick and I failed completely. Like it was so bad, and one of the part of the reasons was investors don't like. So from an investment point of view, they hate the one-offs in that sense because they can't see the predictability. They also value it less. I believe the number was four times less.
Speaker 3:So if you're doing 300K, you might as well just do like a 75K MRR business that is recurring. That is the same word as a 300K business basically. So that's the funny part about this. So the moment you start raising funds, that is when it becomes important. But indeed I agree with Tania, it opens up other possibilities, like high conversion ratios. I think our best affiliate now converts at 10, 11% on our website. Try doing that in e-commerce space, where the average is about 2% to 3%. You don't get that happening. In that sense, we we that opens up affiliate channels because suddenly all these affiliates go like wait, our average conversion rate is 0.51 percent and you're gonna get 10 with you guys. Okay, I'm going all in, which basically happened to some of the affiliates, so like I didn't know the space, but now suddenly, like they went crazy into the space because they saw these high conversion ratios. And then that actually does become predictable because now you have affiliates trying to promote you every single month because they're getting incentivized to earn more and that becomes a predictable channel in that sense. Now there is, of course, fluctuations happening but, like Tanya said, that is the real estate that you're now acquiring at scale basically.
Speaker 3:But for most businesses that is not recurring. It's very hard to raise capital. Reason we're raising capital is, or able to raise capital, is because we have better pick. But we're using the same technology to start a new company called better studio, which is a recurring business, and for us at least, I look at it from a perspective of when do you kind of need a headshot? Is it like once per month? You don't really need a headshot once per month. So if the action is not recurring, you can't really make the product recurring. That would go against the stream of the logic that you're buying.
Speaker 3:But we're adding a feature right now that allows you to import any clothing into the world that you find online line and put it on the hedge that you generated. That becomes a recurring action because nowadays you can go shopping, you can go like okay, you know what? Massimo Dutti, zara, I'm going to go all shopping and I'm going to put all these clothes on me and kind of see how it is. Now you have something recurring. So for us, we see it as what is the recurring habit that is created or can be created? And how do we monetize that, rather than trying to go in stream of what the person actually wants, which is a headshot every single year, not every single two weeks, basically. So that's how we kind of look at it.
Speaker 1:It's funny because that's one idea that I pitch all of our e-commerce clients since two years ago, when I said like hey, how about you have this functionality where, instead of having like paying photographs of professional models, you can upload your own picture and you see this jewelry or these hats or something like that on you and that's going to drive up conversions? So it's like, oh yeah, we're too busy doing this other stuff. Like it's kind of like that meme of that guy trying to that he's got like a car with the square wheels, that meme of that guy trying to that he's got like a car with the square wheels. And it's like how about you try the round wheels and like, oh no, we're too busy doing this, right? It's like come on, stop, have a thing, take a break and kind of like reconsider whether you're actually doing this, going somewhere, or you need to to have second thoughts about that.
Speaker 3:Exactly what we're building, alex. We're building a way for you to see yourself shopping whatever you're building, basically. So that's a life in three months.
Speaker 1:That's a great idea. I'm excited to see that rolling out. The other question I had for you before you wrap it up is all of these ideas of remote bootstrapping. I mean bootstrapping obviously gets compromised by this whole fact that you're going to be fundraising, but the remote, the openness and transparency and other company culture traits that you've got that they might be for you like they are unquestionable. They become a question, they become a red line for a lot of investors.
Speaker 1:And I'm saying that from the perspective of having a super opinionated company like ours that is also like, relies on transparency, hard, remote, never had an office, super specialization and like some stuff that we didn't want to give up. And whenever we've entered into like acquisition conversations in the past're like oh no, you cannot have this. Like if we acquire you like this, yeah, like we have to cancel this program, you have to stop doing this or you cannot be as transparent. Like you cannot have like the open uh metrics because we also share the metrics openly uh every year and stuff like that. And so how do you plan to go over this? Because that's going to raise some eyebrows and you will have to change policies.
Speaker 3:We've had it before, we've had these calls already. Like some investors, we're just like oh, you're full remote. Yeah, we don't do full remote. We don't believe in full remote is the exact words that I've received already, and so I kind of see it as dating. It's like you go on speed dates and then some girl just says, yeah, I don't do brown hair boys, and you're like okay, well, so I kind of see it as this. Like there's enough investors in this world that will believe in you and will believe in these things.
Speaker 3:It does reduce the size, but it also gives you the competitive edge of like knowing exactly which competitor or which investors to go to. It's like if somebody says like I don't like brown haired guys with brown eyes, you're like I don't even have to waste my time here, I just move on to the next blonde person. So I kind of see it as a competitive strength. It is limiting, but it is very satisfying because then you also know exactly who to go to. If a company that has strategic offices and they're all office-based, you kind of know if they're going to try and acquire you that's not going to happen. But if there's a buffer coming to you which is all remote. They're like, yeah, we want to acquire because of this expertise, and then you kind of know it's like this could be an interesting conversation.
Speaker 3:So you can see it as a limit or you can see it as a strength, and I rather see the remote as a strength and knowing it's like, hey, I don't need to waste my time on you. I'm going to focus on the ones that do believe in remote and kind of see it as like, hey, but you're remote, that means that you can actually pay good people, good salaries and still compete. Yes, we can. So I kind of see it as a strength, not as a weakness. But for some people, just like the brown hair, like the girl that only likes, you know, bald people, it will be weakness. So it really depends on who you're talking to. But I see it as a strength.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that means you're not compromising on these things, you're not changing your policies, even if it limits your capacity to raise funds. That means probably I mean, the good thing about like having a profitable business is like you don't really have to raise funds, so you're on the winning, or you have like a strong negotiation position because of that. So you also have got the optionality.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm not saying we're never going to have offices. It really depends on the regions. For example, now in Belgium we're going to have four people. Portugal is going to be four people. So I would highly suggest to create an office there and just have these people work together, but not that you have to go to the office because somebody is going to look at your fingers and say you're working. It's more going to be like you're already paying co-working spaces to like separately when you work together. Um, so it's more of a that kind of vibe than come to the office and otherwise you're like fired kind of vibe. So yes, I would more see this helps than as offices in that sense awesome.
Speaker 1:I don't know if tanya warned you, but like we've got the signature question of the podcast is what's been your most expensive fuck up, that you have to own up to it, you know? Uh, it's got to be yours. And don't give me crap like I hired the wrong person and stuff like that. No generic stuff like there's something specific or so. Like I squandered 100 grand here. Or like I bought the wrong domain. I replied to an email like I'm putting everybody on on the visible end of the recipients, stuff like that.
Speaker 3:So, danny, big fuck up. You want to share Many, I would say. I think, first up of mine. The first one is starting a coffee bar, losing all my money in that when I was 20. That's a big fuck up.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a good one.
Speaker 3:I had all my money. I was thinking about this e-commerce playbook where I would buy furniture from students and then monetize it and rent it out. Bought all the furniture, forgot about the distribution, so I'm now in my mother's basement. I'm actually at my mom's place. There's still a couch downstairs in the basement, so that would be another one in that sense. So I got loads of these stories where I like fucked up so many times. So it really depends if it's more monetary or more like mentally fucked up. But I think that's top of mind where I have a few and then just you know, many more any technical or product.
Speaker 1:Uh, fuck up that you've done recently that you want to share like something you've done, a better peak that like ah, you know, should have known better real, real fuck ups.
Speaker 3:I would say, yeah, I mean, we launched a lot of stuff too early and then everything broke. And then, you know, over the weekend you have to like fix things. I think the most recent fuck up I would say, which was funny is like we're now having these investor meetings and these investors like always want to try out the products. We give them a code and then on WhatsApp I'm getting like your, your product just broke and I'm like, oh no, we just pushed like a new you know editor life, and then like the button disappears. It was like, okay, so I think that could be like the most potential biggest fuck up, because you have an faster trying the product. And they're like, yeah, this doesn't work. And you're like we just push this damn thing like a one day too early, one day like earlier. They would have not even noticed. But now I pushed it and I have to explain. It was like, oh, yeah, we didn't do the good quality control okay, no deploys on yeah no deploys on friday, but also no deploy and no deploys.
Speaker 1:The same day you're visiting or you're sending the demo to an investor.
Speaker 3:Exactly. That's going to be an expensive one. I know that one.
Speaker 1:I know, I know Well any parting thoughts. How can we help you, ricardo to your company, ricardo to your company. Did we give you the last minute for you rolling out the carpet here? Let us know how can we help in terms of our community spreading the word out.
Speaker 3:You got the attention. Oh, for me, I think anybody just listening and that is currently building don't give up. I would say it took me 10 years. I started when I was 20. I fucked up so many things and I always say you always need to get it right once, but you can fuck up as many times as you want and nobody's going to give up your fuck-ups. Everybody's going to care about the win that you suddenly have. Basically, so I would say never give up. I would say if you really want to make it you just have to get it one time right.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much to both of you.
Speaker 3:I had a lot of fun. Hope you did as well. Thank you very much, Alex.
Speaker 2:Thanks, alex, hope to see you around.